Curse

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease.

No, sorry.

The disease is imbalance and what caused it are poor game mechanics and gimmick builds alltogether.

Game mechanics are poor and allow abuses, I agree, but the existence overpowered builds MUST be addressed anyway. Fixing OP stuff is ONE thing that needs to be done. Reworking game mechanics is the other. One can't live without the other. ANet sometimes altered game mechanics to improve things (AoE scattering, for example, or enemy AI targeting lower armor and lower max health so that tanking doesn't really work), but you can't expect fundamental turnarounds in a day.

If it was just about game mechanics, pretty much every profession would be able to run through anything, which is not the case. SF would be broken even if mobs wouldn't ball up around the perma-tank, because it's blanket protection against 99% of the damage sources in game.

Mercesa · Jan 15, 2010, 10:07 AM // 10:07

A-net already showed that they don't care anymore, Just look at the mess they have left. They are not a company on a deadline so why should they care ?

YunSooJin · Jan 15, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease. No matter how many re-balances you try, you will keep getting builds that are overpowered. sometimes as much as SF, sometimes not as much. We've had 5 YEARS of skill rebalancing and it has NEVER stopped invincibuilds from cropping up, or "balanced" PvE. After 5 YEARS of trying the same thing, it is OBVIOUS that skill rebalancing will NEVER work!

Call me crazy or schizo...Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

we know all you wanna do is abuse SF cause you just made a sin.

MisterB · Jan 15, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Yes but I propose they just close all threads about this and MODERATE

I think this thread makes an excellent trash filter. The best part is the moderators don't have to do anything or very little to ensure all the whining, er, complaints get directed here by those who wish to, um, express their opinion.

Coverticus · Jan 15, 2010, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I asked the same question about keeping this thread open for the sake of sanity on page 42:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Pretty much. We used to close SF threads when they got too long or devolved into back-and-forth quote wars, but they would always be followed by another. Now that we know a change is forthcoming, the discussion may as well be kept in this thread until it arrives.

mrvrod · Jan 15, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No, sorry.

The disease is imbalance and what caused it are poor game mechanics and gimmick builds alltogether.

Game mechanics are poor and allow abuses, I agree, but the existence overpowered builds MUST be addressed anyway. Fixing OP stuff is ONE thing that needs to be done. Reworking game mechanics is the other. One can't live without the other. ANet sometimes altered game mechanics to improve things (AoE scattering, for example, or enemy AI targeting lower armor and lower max health so that tanking doesn't really work), but you can't expect fundamental turnarounds in a day.

If it was just about game mechanics, pretty much every profession would be able to run through anything, which is not the case. SF would be broken even if mobs wouldn't ball up around the perma-tank, because it's blanket protection against 99% of the damage sources in game.

Ok, ok. So I'm wrong and you guys are completely right, enjoy your nerf. See how well it goes for you as far as fixing PvE. 5 years and counting...

Arduin · Jan 15, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease. No matter how many re-balances you try, you will keep getting builds that are overpowered. sometimes as much as SF, sometimes not as much. We've had 5 YEARS of skill rebalancing and it has NEVER stopped invincibuilds from cropping up, or "balanced" PvE. After 5 YEARS of trying the same thing, it is OBVIOUS that skill rebalancing will NEVER work!

Okay, but we've never had 12 minute speedclears of UW either in those 5 years. And SF is solely to blame for that, because the poorly implemented UW hasn't changed much in those years. Of course, this is the most obvious manifestation of the one flaw of GW: static PvE.

The inability for Anet to keep GW balanced is one of the reasons they've abandoned GW and started on GW2. That inability is indeed the disease you are talking about. But what are the other options? A major PvE overhaul won't be possible, but nerfing glaringly overpowered skills is. GW2 will be live in ~2 years, so maybe we should encourage the Live Team to try and get a semblance of balance into this game for the next time to come.

Utopia never made it as a 4th chapter for a reason.

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Ok, ok. So I'm wrong and you guys are completely right, enjoy your nerf. See how well it goes for you as far as fixing PvE. 5 years and counting...

Ever heard about halfways? *rolleyes*

It's a step forward, not a cure-all solution. Cure-all solutions rarely exist. To keep up with your disease metaphor, there's no panacea for Guild Wars, but there are still a lot of fields where the game could improve and sure, one of those is improving those overly simplistic game mechanics.

Immobility doesn't take anywhere tough. The fix you're advocating is:

- Hard to implement, probably impossible now. It would mean turning the game upside down for... what? Would you really replay the game again if AI was improved to a level that the game becomes suddenly challenging again?
- Probably not felt as necessary by developers. GW works pretty much like any other RPG game, or any other online game for that matter.

So, imagine a game where foes react smartly to your actions. What would prevent people from running through the game thanks to almost-invincibility like permaSF? You'll need an incredibly smart AI to prevent gimmicks like those from working and, go figure, such an AI doesn't exist in ANY current game.

No one expects PvE to be magically fixed with a nerf. But improving game mechanics alone won't fix PvE either. Yet, there's NO REASON on Earth to keep some absurdities going.

mrvrod · Jan 15, 2010, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ever heard about halfways? *rolleyes*

It's a step forward, not a cure-all solution. Cure-all solutions rarely exist. To keep up with your disease metaphor, there's no panacea for Guild Wars, but there are still a lot of fields where the game could improve and sure, one of those is improving those overly simplistic game mechanics.

Immobility doesn't take anywhere tough. The fix you're advocating is:

- Hard to implement, probably impossible now. It would mean turning the game upside down for... what? Would you really replay the game again if AI was improved to a level that the game becomes suddenly challenging again?
- Probably not felt as necessary by developers. GW works pretty much like any other RPG game, or any other online game for that matter.

So, imagine a game where foes react smartly to your actions. What would prevent people from running through the game thanks to almost-invincibility like permaSF? You'll need an incredibly smart AI to prevent gimmicks like those from working and, go figure, such an AI doesn't exist in ANY current game.

No one expects PvE to be magically fixed with a nerf. But improving game mechanics alone won't fix PvE either. Yet, there's NO REASON on Earth to keep some absurdities going.

My point is it's not a step forward. Every nerf/buff balance fixes some things and breaks others. All you change is the name of your bane. And don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating any fix. I'm saying it's too late. Give up, throw your hands in the air, play the game the way it is, happy in the knowledge that they've learned from this and GW2 will be different. GW2, like you said, is less than 2 years out. Play in the mud, get dirty.

Maybe it's just a difference in our personalities. If you had incurable cancer, maybe you'd still go the Chemo route. Me, I'd tell the docs to f-off and enjoy the time I have left.

Popeye1906 · Jan 15, 2010, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Why should we care about skill balancing when some of us are still getting their account stolen?

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Maybe it's just a difference in our personalities. If you had incurable cancer, maybe you'd still go the Chemo route. Me, I'd tell the docs to f-off and enjoy the time I have left.

You must really love those medical metaphors

Anyway, no, I'd probably enjoy the time I have left myself.

But, heck, GW is not terminally diseased... GW by comparison is just affected by pneumonia. There's still much that can be done before its demise is inevitable.

(Geez, I can't believe I'm replying with medical metaphors myself...

)

Whatever, this doesn't quite work here. Giving up is not something I'd ever expect from a team running business. Resting on laurels or jacking in after screwing up big time are not options I'd ever consider.

Morphy · Jan 15, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You must really love those medical metaphors

Anyway, no, I'd probably enjoy the time I have left myself.

But, heck, GW is not terminally diseased... GW by comparison is just affected by pneumonia. There's still much that can be done before its demise is inevitable.

(Geez, I can't believe I'm replying with medical metaphors myself...

)

Whatever, this doesn't quite work here. Giving up is not something I'd ever expect from a team running business. Resting on laurels or jacking in after screwing up big time are not options I'd ever consider.

You're bad.

Did Prophecies PvE require skill or was it even enjoyable to play? No.

You probably think it is because you're blinded by nostalgia. But seriously, just try playing the game "normally". Use skills that were exactly the same back in Prophecies and just play. Enjoyed it? I highly doubt it. And if you do, then is there a problem, really? Just play the game how you should play it if that makes you happy!

The Prophecies era had good balance relatively. So logically, the problem with PvE isn't balance, it's the fact that AI sucks balls and that monster skill bars are bad. The way to fix PvE would be to improve their bars THEN improve AI and only THEN balance the skills. Balancing skills is actually the least important problem with PvE currently.

Even if you improve PvE, no matter how much, PvP will always be better because it suffers neither from AI problems (henchmen aside, they shouldn't exist) nor bad bars (quite simply because players are smart enough to adapt to skill changes and will always run good bars).

The only thing needed to improve PvP is balance. PvE is far, far, FAR harder to fix. It's theoretically possible, of course, if it wasn't there wouldn't be any good singleplayer games around. The problem, however, is that fixing PvE would take about as much time as completely designing a new game.

Guess what Anet is doing?

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

You're bad.

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

The Prophecies era had good balance relatively. So logically, the problem with PvE isn't balance, it's the fact that AI sucks balls and that monster skill bars are bad.

PART of the problem. Even if AI was better and monster skill bars were better, gimmicks would exist. Infact...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Even if you improve PvE, no matter how much, PvP will always be better because it suffers neither from AI problems (henchmen aside, they shouldn't exist) nor bad bars (quite simply because players are smart enough to adapt to skill changes and will always run good bars).

... gimmicks exist in PvP as well - metagame dominated by gimmicks is actually more a PvP problem than a PvE problem, isn't it? - , even if the enemies you face are smarter (which is not always the case) and run better bars (which is rarely the case). Duh.

BTW, a lot of players I've met are so bad that made me miss the demented AI...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Guess what Anet is doing?

According to developers, Anet is reworking Shadow Form now while developing GW2 for future release. My point exactly...

Morphy · Jan 15, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So?

PART of the problem. Even if AI was better and monster skill bars were better, gimmicks would exist. Infact...

... gimmicks exist in PvP as well - metagame dominated by gimmicks is actually more a PvP problem than a PvE problem, isn't it? - , even if the enemies you face are smarter (which is not always the case) and run better bars (which is rarely the case). Duh.

BTW, a lot of players I've met are so bad that made me miss the demented AI...

According to developers, Anet is reworking Shadow Form now while developing GW2 for future release. My point exactly...

Gimmicks are less of a problem in PvE than they are in PvP. This is because you are not forced to use them there while in PvP you are, unless you like losing. This actually re-inforces my point. PvE gimmicks would still exist, may be true, but playing PvE properly wouldn't gimp you.

Did PvP suck in the Prophecies era? No, it rocked. Did PvE suck in the Prophecies era? About as much as it does now. Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

Concerning bad players, stop playing RA/AB then. But even there, players that are dumber than AI are rare. Very rare.

FrostymcPewPew · Jan 15, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Okay, I seriously dont get this whole 'running down GW1 is going to mean GW2 support is gunna suck' (to paraphrase) thing is coming from. While in some instances I can kind of see (wanting to retain player base), there are a couple of things I see blowing holes in that kinda statement

first off: the ones updating the game are a small portion of the ANet staff. nearly everyone else is working on GW2, and that is where the company focus is, so it will be more supported than GW1 currently is. That is also not to mention some of the stuff they have put into the game since the Live Team started (MOX, the Menagerie, Zquests and coins, costumes, overhaul of the PvP heros/hench issue, etc)

second: GW2 is being started from scratch, as they have wanted to implement more stuff and cant on the existing architecture. Also they are redoing how they do skills, so they hopefully wont have the same imba problems second time around

thirdly: and to me this is an important one, people are still going to get the game anyway. They will get the trial, or they will just buy it, even if they have given up on GW1 just to see what it is like.

I will say that they shouldn't have made the 'skill update every 2 months' comment (just like the 'new content every 4 months' comment) though they still have done pretty well for the limited workforce that they have. But GW1 is not a reflection of what GW2 is going to be like

First off, the fact that they have left so little people to work on gw1 is a back up to my point that they have not prioritized correctly, the more people that quit the game before gw2 hype is big, the more people that will (in theory) not be wanting the game. And pretty much all the things you listed that the team has done haven't been necessary (except the removal of heroes and they still fluffed the henchy skill contest up).

Second, lets hope ay?

Third, sadly because most human beings are actually susceptable to temptation, they will, so they will probably get away with it all in the end... But that's why I was trying to raise the point.

Tenebrae · Jan 15, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Did PvP suck in the Prophecies era? No, it rocked. Did PvE suck in the Prophecies era? About as much as it does now. Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

LoL , you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Mobs skill bars are static but PvE itself is NOT. In PvP you are always facing an lvl 20 foe and skills that you dont know in the first second you see him but you do later. Has always the same armor , always same lvl and always same weap damage unlike in PVE.

The thing is that in PvP you ONLY have to balance skills but to balance PvE you have to balance a lot of stuff more than PvP. If you are only comparing in SKILL BALANCING terms , you may find that part of pve balance "pointless" , ok , fine for you but hell , it is not the only thing to balance in PvE.

Seriously , comparing both balances IS pointless , since the introduction of HM. Even Anet did notice it and made some PvE/P splits ... but it was too late imo.

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Gimmicks are less of a problem in PvE than they are in PvP. This is because you are not forced to use them there while in PvP you are, unless you like losing.

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

Guess what, that's the reason why I stopped PvPing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

I agree, I don't know why you draw the conclusion that I don't.

Balance is not pointless in PvE, IMO. It just not mandatory nor as urgent as it is in PvP, but then again I could say that a game that needs costant rebalancing and nerfing because of gimmick builds is a awfully conceived game.

I just don't see a single reason for PvE to be even worse than it is with those absurd abuses running rampant.

JR · Jan 15, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

The PvP is only good for as long as the gimmicks are kept in check by timely, well thought out balance updates.

Gill Halendt · Jan 15, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The PvP is only good for as long as the gimmicks are kept in check by timely, well thought out balance updates.

Not something that's been happening in the last few years...

Morphy · Jan 15, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

Guess what, that's the reason why I stopped PvPing.

I agree, I don't know why you draw the conclusion that I don't.

Balance is not pointless in PvE, IMO. It just not mandatory nor as urgent as it is in PvP, but then again I could say that a game that needs costant rebalancing and nerfing because of gimmick builds is a awfully conceived game.

I just don't see a single reason for PvE to be even worse than it is with those absurd abuses running rampant.

Yes. PvP is currently pretty bad. Good observation. It's still better than PvE, though. Even the gimmicks take more skill than every build in PvE combined.

I don't see a single reason to fix absurd abuses. The only thing they affect is PUGplay, which sucks anyway. I really dislike dumb random people that fail all the time.

The only reason left is you being a balance purist. Balancing for the sake of balancing makes no sense. Stop pretending it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

LoL , you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Mobs skill bars are static but PvE itself is NOT. In PvP you are always facing an lvl 20 foe and skills that you dont know in the first second you see him but you do later. Has always the same armor , always same lvl and always same weap damage unlike in PVE.

The thing is that in PvP you ONLY have to balance skills but to balance PvE you have to balance a lot of stuff more than PvP. If you are only comparing in SKILL BALANCING terms , you may find that part of pve balance "pointless" , ok , fine for you but hell , it is not the only thing to balance in PvE.

Seriously , comparing both balances IS pointless , since the introduction of HM. Even Anet did notice it and made some PvE/P splits ... but it was too late imo.

It's quite obvious that you do not have the slightest hint what you're talking about yourself. I stated quite clearly in my comments that I'm talking about skill balancing being pointless, not other ways of balancing the game. The rest of your post is basically you repeating what I said earlier, making you look like even more of an idiot.

Quoting myself here:

"The only thing needed to improve PvP is balance. PvE is far, far, FAR harder to fix. It's theoretically possible, of course, if it wasn't there wouldn't be any good singleplayer games around. The problem, however, is that fixing PvE would take about as much time as completely designing a new game."

Ups.